Would they have figured out he was the zodiac?

[Texter Profile]

I have a theory I've been wanting to run by you all for awhile, and this seems like as good a time as any. It's related to your post Texter, so it's only a slight detour on the thread.

I think Zodiac may have originally wanted to take Stine's wallet, in order to send his IDs one by one to the media or police as proof, but once he needed to take part of the shirt to use as a rag, he realized he had a much more terrorizing piece of proof to use.

Zs

No problem, and I find your post interesting too, as I recently started think the same thing. He may have taken several items for future clues, to show he was the murderer, and for future letters so they would know the letters were authenic.

Again that leaves the automobile keys and the wallet. I understand your statement that he could have taken the wallet as a result of trying to potentially obscure fingerprints, but the keys too? At some point someone's going to ask A: Why did he get in the front seat? B: Why take the wallet when he had gloves? C: Why in hell did he take the keys? Those questions are certainly going to be asked. It's naive to think they wouldn't be.

Which goes back to Michael's theory that zodiac was actually, trying to stop the car, and had prints on the key, or just took it by accident, and put it in his pocket by accident. Had he been arrested, and that actually did happen, then he would have used that excuse. But let's be realistic, they didn't think much of it, and if you can't think that it was something more, I doubt it would certainly hit them. Also I don't think he had gloves. I believe those were from a former passenger.

He could have also been sitting in the front seat the entire time as passengers did sit up front with the cabbies.

I'm sure if he disposed of the evidence he did so in a very carefully calculated way. But keys, wallet (maybe glasses) and shirt. That's not the typical haul for a cab robber. So...again, I think it's going to raise questions, specifically "why?". Additionally, although not a lock, we can surmise that due to his extensive collection of firearms Zodiac was not a destitute individual, and if he had a reasonable income, that, too, would have raised some alarms.

Again the wallet can easily be attributed to a robbery. Keys could have been like what Bently said, and he wanted the car engine off to not make much noise. And I don't think having fire arms makes someone have a good income, and I think that is a very far off reasoning. There are many ways to get weapons. Shirt could have been attributed to wiping down prints. Because how frequently other times have you heard of someone cutting a peice of shirt to eventually use as a clue or evidence later on?

Well, unless you can come up with a reason to take car keys and possibly glasses (I don't think it was ever confirmed, but they did check Perez's claims regarding the specs she had in her possession, which indicates the glasses were probably taken too), then I stand by my assertion that we know he had souvenirs. Maybe he used the glasses as a disguise leaving the scene of the crime, but car keys? Uh uh. There's no purpose for taking those. I believe he also has Hartnell's keys as well, which are also pointless to keep.

I've already answered those in other posts so I won't answer it again. The keys would have been taken to turn off the engine, or to keep the car from rolling forward. Again how can you know he kept sourvenirs??? Look at all the past crimes known to be zodiac and tell me how many objects he took prior to the Stine murder? He could have easily tooken the keys to Bryan's vehicle to make sure if he had indeed ended up living he couldn't go and get help. zodiac wasn't the type prior to Stine to keep any personal possesions of the victims. He was in it for the killing.

They do that now, this was 40 years ago, the police didn't have the same training then. Secondly, as I indicated, his demise was neigh anyway, if the police stopped him, he was going to jail for life. He was covered in blood and carrying the instrument of the crime and personal property of the victim. He was going to jail if the police stopped him.

It's all academic anyway, the police (if they didn't further search his residence) would have at least seized his other weapons and checked to see if they had been used in another crime, that's SOP. Unless he disposed of all his previous weapons, he likely would have been jammed up at that point.

Just because he knew he was going to jail, still doesn't mean he would have fired at them. Of course it could go either way, but I just don't see the zodiac as the type of guy who would have done it, and would have tried to talk his way out of it. Who knows how many bullitts he even had in his gun. And of course he may have been a person who he himself was scared to die. I don't know what the police training was like back then but I find it hard to believe that if they suspected him as the murderer that they would have gotten killed, as they would have been pretty close, and when a guy is messing with his pockets that is a sure give a way.

And that's the thing. zodiac may have gotten rid of all of his weapons after each murder, and got new one's to keep the police on their toes. I think he was smart enough to use different weapons per crime scene to not get caught, and connected and would have gotten rid of the old one's for new one's possibly. I don't know if they had bullitt forensics back then to the bullitts to the exact gun or not had he kept the guns. As he may have been a guy with multiple popular guns.

There was nothing to have connected zodiac to past crimes without the letter, and if they would have ended up arresting him, unless he kept some of his stuff, or the palm print match there really isn't any reason to believe that he was the one who had only murdered couples in rural area's.

[Gavrilo Princip Profile]

Which goes back to Michael's theory that zodiac was actually, trying to stop the car, and had prints on the key, or just took it by accident, and put it in his pocket by accident. Had he been arrested, and that actually did happen, then he would have used that excuse. But let's be realistic, they didn't think much of it, and if you can't think that it was something more, I doubt it would certainly hit them. Also I don't think he had gloves. I believe those were from a former passenger.

It was the second fare of the night (according to Fincher / Graysmith, can anyone confirm this?). So I think they would have been able to track down the owner of the gloves if they were someone else's. There's no denying this crime is different from the others, but there was no need to shut the vehicle down. Seems ill thought out, uncharacteristic of Zodiac. Arguably, every action he ever took at a crime scene was calculated out to the very last detail. Stopping the car would be a waste of time, and highly uncharacteristic, unless there was a purpose to do so (gloating or taking souvenirs).

He could have also been sitting in the front seat the entire time as passengers did sit up front with the cabbies.

That's ridiculous. You don't shoot someone in the back of the head in the passenger seat, nor do you expose yourself to possible defensive actions by the victim.

Again the wallet can easily be attributed to a robbery. Keys could have been like what Bently said, and he wanted the car engine off to not make much noise. And I don't think having fire arms makes someone have a good income, and I think that is a very far off reasoning. There are many ways to get weapons. Shirt could have been attributed to wiping down prints. Because how frequently other times have you heard of someone cutting a peice of shirt to eventually use as a clue or evidence later on?

Could have, maybe, it's possible...that's all I'm hearing from you. It's possible Zodiac walked a block and got into a car and the person seen walking was not involved in the crime at all. It's possible he sprouted wings and flew away. A car engine would have been welcome noise under the circumstances. The sound of a vehicle idling would be much less suspicious than the sound of tearing fabric in a cab...even in San Francisco. If you were on the street and saw a cab idling you probably wouldn't pay it much mind. If you saw a stopped cab, and tearing sounds in the cab, that would make you say "what the hell is going on there?"...or it should. And taking a piece of shirt to wipe down the cab seems an overly burdensome act, something that would not have been overlooked by police.

I've already answered those in other posts so I won't answer it again. The keys would have been taken to turn off the engine, or to keep the car from rolling forward. Again how can you know he kept sourvenirs??? Look at all the past crimes known to be zodiac and tell me how many objects he took prior to the Stine murder? He could have easily tooken the keys to Bryan's vehicle to make sure if he had indeed ended up living he couldn't go and get help. zodiac wasn't the type prior to Stine to keep any personal possesions of the victims. He was in it for the killing.

You don't need the keys to stop the cab from rolling, in fact that will not stop a car from rolling. Also, I think he may have Harnell's keys, if not it's because he knew the position he was in would not permit him to lollygag around at the crime scene (he got them from Hartnell at the beginning of their encounter, he may not have actually pocketed them because he was probably more concerned about victim control at the time). Again he took the wallet and if he intended it to look like a cab robbery, he didn't intend for it to be seen that way for long, otherwise he would not have taken credit for the crime. So he did take souvenirs. I don't see why you're even arguing this, he may have initially wanted to give the police the impression it was a robbery so they didn't call out the Big Red One to scour the city to find "The Zodiac Killer". But he didn't need to take any of those things to convince the police it was a robbery. Stop being obtuse. He took them, there's no reason for him to take them, unless he wants them to remind him of the crime.

Just because he knew he was going to jail, still doesn't mean he would have fired at them. Of course it could go either way, but I just don't see the zodiac as the type of guy who would have done it, and would have tried to talk his way out of it. Who knows how many bullitts he even had in his gun. And of course he may have been a person who he himself was scared to die. I don't know what the police training was like back then but I find it hard to believe that if they suspected him as the murderer that they would have gotten killed, as they would have been pretty close, and when a guy is messing with his pockets that is a sure give a way.

Hey bub, killing someone while in the process of a felony is an automatic life sentence, if you're lucky. Based on his behavior at Lake Berryessa, I'm positive Zodiac knew this. So...you've got a guy covered in the blood of the victim, carrying a 9mm automatic handgun (incidentally used in the murder of a cabbie a couple blocks away), carrying the fare money, the victim's wallet, keys and maybe glasses. If he gets stopped for more than a quarter second, he's going inside for all day...or he shoots. What's the negative repercussions of firing on police? You might die right there instead of in San Quinten? You don't think Zodiac knew this? There was no "talking your way out" of that situation.

It's clear you're not familiar with firearms, it's highly likely he had at least 9 more rounds and possibly as many as 14 more if it was a Browning (15 if he had one in the pipe when he loaded it, which is also likely, I don't think he would have had time to manually cycle the slide before killing Stine). I think a guy who's willing to risk a death sentence if caught would have the huevos to shoot a cop when there was no other way out, except to run.

And that's the thing. zodiac may have gotten rid of all of his weapons after each murder, and got new one's to keep the police on their toes. I think he was smart enough to use different weapons per crime scene to not get caught, and connected and would have gotten rid of the old one's for new one's possibly. I don't know if they had bullitt forensics back then to the bullitts to the exact gun or not had he kept the guns. As he may have been a guy with multiple popular guns.

If you have the ability to dispose of firearms with impunity, then you have some kind of money. And if you have the time to carefully sew an executioner's hood, you are likely not working 12 hour shifts on the working docks to make ends meet. Again with the "maybes" and "it's possible". Sure it is. Anything is.

And FYI they did have ballistics sufficient to identify a pistol by the rifling marks left on the bullets. There's no advantage to using a different gun at every crime...unless you're planning on possibly getting caught and don't want police to tie it all together. I don't understand that though, if he was caught after any of those crimes, he was still going away for life, regardless of whether they figured out he was Zodiac or not.

There was nothing to have connected zodiac to past crimes without the letter, and if they would have ended up arresting him, unless he kept some of his stuff, or the palm print match there really isn't any reason to believe that he was the one who had only murdered couples in rural area's.

If he disposed of the pistols. If he didn't still have the hood at his house. If, if, if. You're asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and (at the same time) telling us the number is 4,000. I think he would have either confessed or been identified through his firearms or the contents of his home. Assuming he didn't get into a firefight at the stop and been killed or escaped (which is, I believe, almost a certainty). Either way, I think he would have still been identified as Zodiac.

[Bently Profile]

"It was the second fare of the night (according to Fincher / Graysmith, can anyone confirm this?)."

Confirmed by police report:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport2.html

[Rocket Man Profile]

remember that Z only attacked his victims from behind, or side at BRS, although there he shone a light in their face so they probably faced away from him. Cowardly fella. So, standing face to face with cops I think it wouldn't be a piece of cake to him, and like it's been pointed out, they wouldn't have let him search his pockets.
This also makes me more certain that Fouke and Zelms never atleast got out of their cars and talked to Z (cause more than likely he would have attempted to shoot them, since he must have thought he was caught) but maybe they slowed down and rolled the window down and asked him something.
But it's quite amazing what a risk he took, since obviously he didn't know they were looking for a black male. It would fit so well that Zodiac called 911 first and told them to look for a bma, but that wasn't the case. Okay, this is a wild theory, but what if there was someone else involved, who lived nearby (where Z might have crashed the night) who he'd arranged to call 911 at a certain time, and tell them to look for a bma, and after that the teens called?
I would really like to know who messed up and said it's a 'black guy'. The words black and white don't even sound alike at all.

[glurk Profile Website]

So far as I understand, these codes were used at that time:

AFA = ASIAN-FEMALE-ADULT
AFJ = ASIAN-FEMALE-JUVENILE
AMA = ASIAN-MALE-ADULT
AMJ = ASIAN-MALE-JUVENILE

BFA = BLACK-FEMALE-ADULT
BFJ = BLACK-FEMALE-JUVENILE
BMA = BLACK-MALE-ADULT
BMJ = BLACK-MALE-JUVENILE

HFA = HISPANIC-FEMALE-ADULT
HFJ = HISPANIC-FEMALE-JUVENILE
HMA = HISPANIC-MALE-ADULT
HMJ = HISPANIC-MALE-JUVENILE

MFA = MEXICAN-FEMALE-ADULT
MFJ = MEXICAN-FEMALE-JUVENILE
MMA = MEXICAN-MALE-ADULT
MMJ = MEXICAN-MALE-JUVENILE

WFA = WHITE-FEMALE-ADULT
WFJ = WHITE-FEMALE-JUVENILE
WMA = WHITE-MALE-ADULT
WMJ = WHITE-MALE-JUVENILE

-glurk

[Gavrilo Princip Profile]

I have a theory I've been wanting to run by you all for awhile, and this seems like as good a time as any. It's related to your post Texter, so it's only a slight detour on the thread.

I think Zodiac may have originally wanted to take Stine's wallet, in order to send his IDs one by one to the media or police as proof, but once he needed to take part of the shirt to use as a rag, he realized he had a much more terrorizing piece of proof to use.

Zs

The only reason I disagree with you is because any part of the shirt could have been taken to use as a rag...why turn the guy over and go through the rigamarole of cutting it or tearing it from the back? And why take a piece that has blood all over it to use to wipe down prints? I don't know, it's a difficult question. Maybe the accessible parts of Stine's shirt were soaked in blood. Who knows. I suppose it's possible, but I don't understand why he would take the piece from the back.

[Zsearcher Profile]

Yeah, the back was the only fairly dry spot. The front was in bad shape. Zs

[Texter Profile]

There's no denying this crime is different from the others, but there was no need to shut the vehicle down. Seems ill thought out, uncharacteristic of Zodiac. Arguably, every action he ever took at a crime scene was calculated out to the very last detail. Stopping the car would be a waste of time, and highly uncharacteristic, unless there was a purpose to do so (gloating or taking souvenirs).

Actually it isn't a waste of time if he wanted to make sure there was no noise at all.

That's ridiculous. You don't shoot someone in the back of the head in the passenger seat, nor do you expose yourself to possible defensive actions by the victim.

HELLO?!?! When did I ever say he was shot from the passenger seat??? You asked why he would be in the front seat and I told you one reason why. Remember the dispatch for cabbies to not allow cab drivers to let patrons sit in their front seat?

Could have, maybe, it's possible...that's all I'm hearing from you. It's possible Zodiac walked a block and got into a car and the person seen walking was not involved in the crime at all. It's possible he sprouted wings and flew away.

Atleast I'm not acting like I'm the all knowing, man with a crystal ball who can tell the future. Why do I use those terms??? Because all of those things ARE POSSIBLE!!! I mean if you are going to get this aggravated in a debate on a message forum, I think maybe you should check yourself in for some mental health problems bub.

A car engine would have been welcome noise under the circumstances. The sound of a vehicle idling would be much less suspicious than the sound of tearing fabric in a cab...even in San Francisco. If you were on the street and saw a cab idling you probably wouldn't pay it much mind. If you saw a stopped cab, and tearing sounds in the cab, that would make you say "what the hell is going on there?"...or it should. And taking a piece of shirt to wipe down the cab seems an overly burdensome act, something that would not have been overlooked by police.

Actually it isn't a welcomed noise, especially if it were to be on for a long period of time, as it would mean more likely for someone to look outside and wonder why a taxi cab is still there. And then see a guy leaning into a cab, doing something to a cab driver you would know something is very wrong. What would you be more worried about car noise, or the smaller time frame of someone trying to rip a peice of shirt?

Also, I think he may have Harnell's keys, if not it's because he knew the position he was in would not permit him to lollygag around at the crime scene (he got them from Hartnell at the beginning of their encounter, he may not have actually pocketed them because he was probably more concerned about victim control at the time).

And why did he take the keys if he did? Possibly because he wanted to make sure if Mr. Harnell surived, he couldn't get help as easily. Especially after knowing that Michael Mageau survived he didn't want to take more chances then needed???

Again he took the wallet and if he intended it to look like a cab robbery, he didn't intend for it to be seen that way for long, otherwise he would not have taken credit for the crime. So he did take souvenirs. I don't see why you're even arguing this, he may have initially wanted to give the police the impression it was a robbery so they didn't call out the Big Red One to scour the city to find "The Zodiac Killer". But he didn't need to take any of those things to convince the police it was a robbery. Stop being obtuse. He took them, there's no reason for him to take them, unless he wants them to remind him of the crime.

Again you are talking about the zodiac who likes to play mind games. Of course it is likely to say that he intended for it to look like a cab robbery gone bad. Or that he had planned to take those things for future clothes. Could go either way, which is where the possibilities comes from. And souvenir comes from the french word to take a memento, or keep sake. We DON'T KNOW if he EVER intended to keep them for FUTURE CLUES ONLY, or if he wanted them for a personal reasoning. Therefore you don't know if they were souvenirs or not. I don't know why your arguing, when it is a very plausible theory. In which case is why he could have taken the wallet you know? And I'm not being obtuse, I'm being a right angle Again there is reasons as to why to take them without needing to be reminded of the crimes.

Hey bub, killing someone while in the process of a felony is an automatic life sentence, if you're lucky. Based on his behavior at Lake Berryessa, I'm positive Zodiac knew this. So...you've got a guy covered in the blood of the victim, carrying a 9mm automatic handgun (incidentally used in the murder of a cabbie a couple blocks away), carrying the fare money, the victim's wallet, keys and maybe glasses. If he gets stopped for more than a quarter second, he's going inside for all day...or he shoots. What's the negative repercussions of firing on police? You might die right there instead of in San Quinten? You don't think Zodiac knew this? There was no "talking your way out" of that situation.

I know killing someone is very likely to lead to a life sentence. But do you know that it is more likely for one to get the death penality with more murder counts? If zodiac was afraid of death himself, he could have likely decided he would took a life sentence instead of death. Something we don't know. And that's what the negative repercussions of firing on a police officer.

My "talking your way out of it" was meant if he was only questioned, if he saw someone the description or what not. He wouldn't have instantly gone for a shootout in that case. In my opinion he would have only done it had they gotten out of the police car.

It's clear you're not familiar with firearms, it's highly likely he had at least 9 more rounds and possibly as many as 14 more if it was a Browning (15 if he had one in the pipe when he loaded it, which is also likely, I don't think he would have had time to manually cycle the slide before killing Stine). I think a guy who's willing to risk a death sentence if caught would have the huevos to shoot a cop when there was no other way out, except to run.

Have you ever seen some crime scene's where theres a field of bullits on the ground? He would have had 8 or 13 or 14 bullits left. Not that many if he planned to actually have a fire fight with a bunch of cops. And truthfully the only way I see him actually getting a shot off is if he instantly shot at them when they were in the car. Had he waited for them to open the car doors he would have shot the officer closet to him while the officer on the other side would have possibly gotten behind the other side of the car where he a gun shootout could have occured, and he could have waisted the little bit of ammo he left while standing his ground, or running while firing shots to keep the other officer at bay. Which could have resulted in him easily getting caught not knowing the terrain.

If you have the ability to dispose of firearms with impunity, then you have some kind of money. And if you have the time to carefully sew an executioner's hood, you are likely not working 12 hour shifts on the working docks to make ends meet. Again with the "maybes" and "it's possible". Sure it is. Anything is.

I will respond to this in a PM. Again with your anger. haha

There's no advantage to using a different gun at every crime...unless you're planning on possibly getting caught and don't want police to tie it all together. I don't understand that though, if he was caught after any of those crimes, he was still going away for life, regardless of whether they figured out he was Zodiac or not.

Actually there is purpose, to not get connected if you are caught. Especially as you have said zodiac "plans arguably, every action he ever took at a crime scene was calculated out to the very last detail." Which means he would have planned as to why to use two different guns at two different murders. Why not just use the same one???

If he disposed of the pistols. If he didn't still have the hood at his house. If, if, if. You're asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and (at the same time) telling us the number is 4,000. I think he would have either confessed or been identified through his firearms or the contents of his home. Assuming he didn't get into a firefight at the stop and been killed or escaped (which is, I believe, almost a certainty). Either way, I think he would have still been identified as Zodiac.

Well there is a reason why to ask so many different angles, in cases you don't know that have real reasonings that have actually occured in past crime scenes. It's a lot better then pretending like I am somone with a 140 IQ, and is all knowing, and has a crystal ball to tell the future, saying I KNOW THIS, I KNOW WHY, I KNOW WILL HAPPEN LIKE THAT. haha When you don't know. Nor does anyone else know what would happen. Every thing is a possible if, When people still don't know even how the murder absolutely occured. I mean this whole thread is a "What If?" full of theories. Including yours even if you think you know. And I won't deny that yours are also possible. My responses also are not a timeline of how it would happen, but on the different situtations if they had occured. Though one certainly could take it as a timeline. Because if he did confess he certainly would have known that there was a higher chance of a death penality that was availble at the time in California vs a life in prison. What would you choose? Death penality or jail time???

[WinterAndrews]

If the Zodiac took souveniers, he's clearly a necrophiliac. He had Stine's head -in his lap-. But I'm not convinced he had those objects because he was taking souveniers. He might have just decided to stuff what he touched into his pockets, having accidently ripped the shirt trying to position the body (kiuku)

[akwilks Profile]

The cut on the shirt look fairly uniform, straight. Anything is possible, but it doesn't look like an accident - it looks like it was cut on purpose, likely with something the killer brought with him, IMO.