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The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

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Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby smithy » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:30 am

Case proven!

There's no doubt in my mind that Z dragged down filler from the enciphered material available to him just as you describe. I've a few bits to add that you might want to Occam. I don't think Z stuck rigidly to the "verticals" but meandered across the cipher looking to the right (as one would when reading), and that's where you can find the Image stuff, as you may or may not agree. That's not scientifical. I believe it though. Where did that "U" come from, that we've not mentioned so far? Halfway up column 14 going left is a little odd. So much for reading - but it's in the same general area as the other singles. Fine by me.

Now.

On the last-but-one line, last position, Z put in what is effectively an "E", and the second character on the last line is also an "E" - (which as you'll remember "represents itself" in the key to this cipher).
Did he start off thinking he'd skew the "E" count a little more, then, or...?
The first "E" character - that round with a dot in - appears halfway up the cipher, in the same territory as the Image stuff, but I hate to let facts stand in the way of an interesting theory.

I like to speculate that he was initially going to use the filler in a way which kept the frequency count "flat", then thought "to heck with it". I know if it was my cipher that's what I'd be doing. I'd want the filler to reflect the whole, as is usual*. I tend to think, just as he became bored with rotating the key characters correctly when enciphering, his patience wasn't high, then. That may be a long reach, but if valid, tells us a little about the quality of his cipher skills, perhaps.

More conjecture - and quite possibly ridiculous - the "E" in that position on the last line second spot, demonstrates the Z's dispraxia.
He made the same mistake as with the "K" in the 340 - he copied it wrongly. :wink:

I'd like to go off on a free-for-all comparing the filler in the 408 to the filler in the 340 right now. But I won't for the minute. I've been looking up and down the 340 columns trying to see a trace of this same "filler drop" thing for a while....

Nice wurk Glurk and thanks for resurrecting this.

Edit: And another thing.
The copied "strings" of text have been copied down from further up than eight lines. It makes sense to me that Z would not want obvious repetition in the last eight lines - it might have been apparent if you were looking at just an 8-line section, so he was concentrating on the "central" section of the cipher on purpose.

* I've asterixed my italics since I may have made this convention up. I swear I've read it, but I can't for the moment find the reference.

Bently

Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby Bently » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:21 am

I'm trying to think of a reason why Z would want to "pull down" most of the last line for filler rather than just sporadically pick characters, and why he would choose 4 in a row from line 8, which of course would be the last line of part one, and only 2 unrelated from line 16.

More than that I'm wondering, if this indeed points towards filler, is there is any connection to Smithy's perpendicular matches find in the 340, meaning that it, or some portion of it, might also be filler.

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Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby smithy » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:34 am

Bently wrote:......in the 340, meaning that it, or some portion of it, might also be filler.

Bently, what do you make of the last two characters in the 340?

Bently

Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby Bently » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:03 am

smithy wrote:
Bently wrote:......in the 340, meaning that it, or some portion of it, might also be filler.

Bently, what do you make of the last two characters in the 340?


Just the last two? :smile:

I guess the common consensus would be that they are filler after it was signed Zodiac, which I don't think has ever lead to anything. The + in the last spot would lead one to believe that it and possibly all other + chars are either nulls or just the last one is. The I char in position 339 is interesting in that it appears twice more in the 340 and divides it roughly into 3 parts, the first one being 109 chars in, the second 110 and last 120.

What else am I missing?

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Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby smithy » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:13 am

Zsearcher wrote:As I mentioned on the other board, the positions of these matching symbols can be converted to a code which can be used to try to crack the 340. There are many interpretations of this data possible so I don't want to start posting all of them. Zs

..but you have to post all of them Zs, that's what the threads for!

Bently, you haven't missed a whole hell of a lot, I'd say. Yep, those last two are probably filler aren't they; one being the most common character and in the right place to have "dropped in" - the "+" - and the other ditto, and also a rarer beast at 3 occurences including this spurious one.
Hey - if it was already a concensus that these two are filler, why wasn't I told?!
It'll be time to discuss the "signature" sometime.
I like the idea of the cipher being a 338 btw. Less work. :dance:
(Joke).

Bently

Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby Bently » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:03 am

smithy wrote:Hey - if it was already a concensus that these two are filler, why wasn't I told?!


Er, maybe it's just my own consensus. :oops:

Adding your recent perpendicular matches find (of which I don't recall any convincing argument that it's random) to the vague ZOxAIK similarity at bottom (which of course could merely be filler), the three double pluses (two with another plus underneath), the dashes in row 10 with another plus smack in center, the cross hair in the center of 20, the HER and GOD on row 1, the U R TO DIE BY in row 11 (row 11 possibly either being the second half of row 1 or part 2 of cipher) has really got me wondering about the whole validity of the 340. Some or all of these may well be randomness, if not then at very least there's something tricky going on. I really hope there is a coherent, definite coded message in it somewhere and that someone finds it. I used to hope that someone was me but at this point I'd settle for anyone. :smile:

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Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby smithy » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:37 am

I was going to post "of course we don't need to worry about the 5-character blocks that Alan mentioned since we don't need to worry about transmission of the cipher, so that bit's irrelevant".
I'm so pleased I didn't.
:mrgreen:
Great to see you Alan!

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Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby smithy » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:01 pm

Bently wrote:Er, maybe it's just my own consensus. :oops:

I agree, so it's a consensus. :grin:
Adding your recent perpendicular matches....... [hoping that there's a] message in it somewhere and that someone finds it. I used to hope that someone was me but at this point I'd settle for anyone. :smile:

Amen to that. Nothing would make me happier than to hear someone had really beaten the thing. One day!

Zsearcher wrote:Actually a 339 would be even better. 3x113 for a split cipher.
Well smithy you can look at the resultant plaintext and manipulate rows and columns based on the value of these letters or you can count the spaces between the symbols in the filler and matching lines and manipulate rows or columns this way. There are so many options to try I get a headache thinking about it. :think: Zs

Z's - where were you when I wanted help in the transposition thread..... ?

Bently

Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby Bently » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:39 am

Heard that someone on zk.com believes the last 18 letters, as solved by Harden, can be split into 6 groups of 3 letters which were the city codes used by the Strategic Air Command, further speculating I believe that Z was high up military to have known these codes and knew they were top secret and would not be published should the cipher have been solved.

Anyone read this thread and have anything further? It's out there, but interesting...

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Re: The final 18 symbols are nothing but filler!

Postby smithy » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:56 pm

Bently wrote:Heard that someone on zk.com believes the last 18 letters, as solved by Harden, can be split into 6 groups of 3 letters which were the city codes used by the Strategic Air Command, further speculating I believe that Z was high up military to have known these codes and knew they were top secret and would not be published should the cipher have been solved.
Anyone read this thread and have anything further? It's out there, but interesting...


Hey Bently, blimey - that's out there and then some.
I used to work with USAFE; I've never heard of any "city codes", in logistics, anyway.
What use would a three digit number that describes a city be anyway? Some way of describing them "covertly" if you intend to attack them? What point would there be in Z including this at the end of a cipher? As a very good clue to the fact that he had access to classified information? Why would Z want the deciphered material to remain unpublished?

Just my opinion, but I'd file this under hogwash.

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