Riverside: Root of all evil?
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Riverside: Root of all evil?
by smithy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:03 pm
Riverside stuff, some remarks FG and I shared, and this web site have me thinking “How and when did this get started?”
The awful murder of Cheri Jo Bates was a huge event, big media coverage, LA Times page 3 - statewide interest, indeed.
Here's a long post, then - although not a new topic.
http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Serial-Killers.html states "According to Hickey's 1997 database of approximately 399 serial killers, the average age of the murderer at the time of the first killing was 27.5 years”. If Zodiac “got into it” for Riverside in 1966, twenty-seven at that time is an acceptable estimate, which would make him thirty by the time of LHR.
The site also defines serial killer activity in “phases”. They are “aura”, “trolling”, “wooing”, “capture”, “murder”, “totem” and “depression”. These phases don’t seem to immediately and perfectly apply to Z in my opinion; some do. I’ll just throw a few things out there about them, if I may.
(I won’t properly reiterate all the phases, since you guys can read the site if interested).
In the initial “aura” stage - vivid fantasies and imagination-driven “rehearsals” - Z might have written the Confession letter. It’s a good candidate as fantasy-driven but believable, and Z’s in-depth “hobby” knowledge would have underpinned it. It was posted without any stamps* and I believe no fingerprints either. If this was “career outset”, Z would have been making sure of removing all “clews”. Early and quite tentative, steps. The over-done crime novel “lots of carbons” approach to the letter’s production support this. For it, and the subsequent three “Bates” letters, his knowledge of crime and detection may also show in the fact that they were posted from Riverside, since that would have helped him appear “local” to present a more frightening image, but also be a blind for the fact that he wasn’t local to Riverside. The six month “cooling off” period between the crime at Riverside and “Bates” letters is echoed after LHR, and may be another reflection of a more respectful approach to LE - and a distinct early fear of them. Later, he became much bolder, and much less concerned about leaving any and all types of physical evidence, until he reached that near-suicidal Presidio level. Perhaps the “Bates” letter envelopes are an early indicator of a movement in that direction - less interest in hiding his “normal” handwriting.
“Trolling” is the next phase, and it’s self explanatory. If we’re suggesting Riverside was an early (first?) outing, perhaps we might expect the same approach as at Riverside in the trolling phase? If he didn’t live at Riverside, then is it also quite feasible that he didn’t live in Vallejo either? He trolled Vallejo, got to know the place, murdered there, but didn’t live there. If he removed himself from his locale on a “fantasy trip” to Riverside and it worked, then it may well have influenced him to invest time away from his immediate environs during this “trolling” stage too. No?
In the next phases, Z. didn’t immediately “woo” or “capture” in my opinion - not in the classical sense anyway. If we think of these stages broadly (even without recourse to the definitions), he didn’t “capture” until Lake Berryessa, and he never “woo’ed”. Does that sound correct? The Riverside murderer displayed both traits. Perhaps the implication is pretty clear.
Please do go have a look at “murder”, “totem” and “depression” phases and see what y’all think.
I’m going in another direction here, quickly.
Apart from his sick thrills and jollies, if he wasn’t Cheri’s murderer, what else did he get from the crime? He obviously took some time to become very familiar with this murder, perpetrator or not. I’d suggest he learned (at the least), that a high degree of preparation aids escape and evasion. That physical evidence tying you into a large demographic group such as servicemen won’t hurt your cause. (Perhaps he adopted Wing Walkers because of the tie-in with the heel prints at Riverside? How’s that? Too far?!). Since he was very much still fuelling his fantasies at Lake Berryessa, and for that had undoubtedly assumed special attire for the crime; perhaps that approach extended to all of his escapades - and also originated with Riverside? It’s a looong reach, maybe, but I think Z learned a lot from Riverside.
* I’ve read elsewhere - another Z site in the past I think - that there was an active test available to law enforcement at the time to capture blood group from saliva samples. I’ve not been able to confirm this either, but it’s a good story. If this is true, and Z knew it, what’s the significance of the later double postage then? Here’s something to test?
The awful murder of Cheri Jo Bates was a huge event, big media coverage, LA Times page 3 - statewide interest, indeed.
Here's a long post, then - although not a new topic.
http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Serial-Killers.html states "According to Hickey's 1997 database of approximately 399 serial killers, the average age of the murderer at the time of the first killing was 27.5 years”. If Zodiac “got into it” for Riverside in 1966, twenty-seven at that time is an acceptable estimate, which would make him thirty by the time of LHR.
The site also defines serial killer activity in “phases”. They are “aura”, “trolling”, “wooing”, “capture”, “murder”, “totem” and “depression”. These phases don’t seem to immediately and perfectly apply to Z in my opinion; some do. I’ll just throw a few things out there about them, if I may.
(I won’t properly reiterate all the phases, since you guys can read the site if interested).
In the initial “aura” stage - vivid fantasies and imagination-driven “rehearsals” - Z might have written the Confession letter. It’s a good candidate as fantasy-driven but believable, and Z’s in-depth “hobby” knowledge would have underpinned it. It was posted without any stamps* and I believe no fingerprints either. If this was “career outset”, Z would have been making sure of removing all “clews”. Early and quite tentative, steps. The over-done crime novel “lots of carbons” approach to the letter’s production support this. For it, and the subsequent three “Bates” letters, his knowledge of crime and detection may also show in the fact that they were posted from Riverside, since that would have helped him appear “local” to present a more frightening image, but also be a blind for the fact that he wasn’t local to Riverside. The six month “cooling off” period between the crime at Riverside and “Bates” letters is echoed after LHR, and may be another reflection of a more respectful approach to LE - and a distinct early fear of them. Later, he became much bolder, and much less concerned about leaving any and all types of physical evidence, until he reached that near-suicidal Presidio level. Perhaps the “Bates” letter envelopes are an early indicator of a movement in that direction - less interest in hiding his “normal” handwriting.
“Trolling” is the next phase, and it’s self explanatory. If we’re suggesting Riverside was an early (first?) outing, perhaps we might expect the same approach as at Riverside in the trolling phase? If he didn’t live at Riverside, then is it also quite feasible that he didn’t live in Vallejo either? He trolled Vallejo, got to know the place, murdered there, but didn’t live there. If he removed himself from his locale on a “fantasy trip” to Riverside and it worked, then it may well have influenced him to invest time away from his immediate environs during this “trolling” stage too. No?
In the next phases, Z. didn’t immediately “woo” or “capture” in my opinion - not in the classical sense anyway. If we think of these stages broadly (even without recourse to the definitions), he didn’t “capture” until Lake Berryessa, and he never “woo’ed”. Does that sound correct? The Riverside murderer displayed both traits. Perhaps the implication is pretty clear.
Please do go have a look at “murder”, “totem” and “depression” phases and see what y’all think.
I’m going in another direction here, quickly.
Apart from his sick thrills and jollies, if he wasn’t Cheri’s murderer, what else did he get from the crime? He obviously took some time to become very familiar with this murder, perpetrator or not. I’d suggest he learned (at the least), that a high degree of preparation aids escape and evasion. That physical evidence tying you into a large demographic group such as servicemen won’t hurt your cause. (Perhaps he adopted Wing Walkers because of the tie-in with the heel prints at Riverside? How’s that? Too far?!). Since he was very much still fuelling his fantasies at Lake Berryessa, and for that had undoubtedly assumed special attire for the crime; perhaps that approach extended to all of his escapades - and also originated with Riverside? It’s a looong reach, maybe, but I think Z learned a lot from Riverside.
* I’ve read elsewhere - another Z site in the past I think - that there was an active test available to law enforcement at the time to capture blood group from saliva samples. I’ve not been able to confirm this either, but it’s a good story. If this is true, and Z knew it, what’s the significance of the later double postage then? Here’s something to test?
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Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by FoolsGold » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:23 pm
I'll reply more later, once I've had to chance to mull over the article link you posted, but I wanted to comment lightly on these:
I've looked into the history of blood typing from saliva, and I haven't found much, but I haven't looked long, either. I would think though that if Bay Area police had had a test like that at their disposal, common duty would've required them to use it. Because they didn't, I would say that either the test didn't exist, or it wasn't available to Bay Area police.
Now, let me assume that such a test did exist, and the Zodiac knew about it. Would it have mattered much to him, then? Let's suppose that he had O+ blood, and the police had tested the saliva, and let's assume the test worked on dried saliva applied to the back of a stuck stamp, rather than the mucosal lining of a living human's mouth.
What would the Zodiac have gained, unless he knew he belonged to a rare blood type, and thus by offering his blood type, he would have made it easier for the police to not only possibly identify his genetic heritage, but also deeply narrow any and all suspects until they found him. So unless the Zodiac had a common blood type, and he knew it, I just don't see it.
And strange enough, he didn't always use multiple stamps. More than few letters had a single Roosevelt. I think the guy used his 6-cent'ers until he had no more and then used up the one-cent ones until he went out for more.
I have an article, in HTML, where I graphically display all the stamps he used, when and where. I know you did the same thing with a post. I just don't see a pattern that implies he was saying much with the stamps, other than that he may have used more postage than necessary only when mailing to more distant locations. Perhaps the guy didn't completely understand how the US postal service works...
No, not too far IMO, not for a guy wearing a quad-corned hood and bib. The older man's clothing might have been his first murder disguise, along with Wing Walkers. This is what he might have worn at LHR and BRSP. We might also expect him to own a Timex, one perhaps similar to the Bates murder watch. And he then swaps into a hood at LB, followed by something else with horn-rimmed glasses at PH.
It's possible he felt that he had to dress like a killer in order to be a killer. And that might have extended to wearing what he imagined the Bates killer wearing.
Which also explains why he would send Avery a Halloween card, as that holiday thematically embodies both costumes and death, which would explain not only his perhaps singularly deep interest in the Bates murder, but also his desire for costumes and disguises. I'm going in circles, I know, but I'll bet anything this guy LOVED Halloween when he was a 'cid', and probably as an adult.
You have to wonder if he dressed like a different killer at every crime scene. A different kill, a different 'disguise', each drawn from his active fantasy-true-crime imagination.
I'll have more later, as I certainly feel that the evolving-fantasy-as-life theory has a lot to offer, and does explain many aspects of the Zodiac's apparent psychology.
I’ve read elsewhere - another Z site in the past I think - that there was an active test available to law enforcement at the time to capture blood group from saliva samples. I’ve not been able to confirm this either, but it’s a good story. If this is true, and Z knew it, what’s the significance of the later double postage then? Here’s something to test?
I've looked into the history of blood typing from saliva, and I haven't found much, but I haven't looked long, either. I would think though that if Bay Area police had had a test like that at their disposal, common duty would've required them to use it. Because they didn't, I would say that either the test didn't exist, or it wasn't available to Bay Area police.
Now, let me assume that such a test did exist, and the Zodiac knew about it. Would it have mattered much to him, then? Let's suppose that he had O+ blood, and the police had tested the saliva, and let's assume the test worked on dried saliva applied to the back of a stuck stamp, rather than the mucosal lining of a living human's mouth.
What would the Zodiac have gained, unless he knew he belonged to a rare blood type, and thus by offering his blood type, he would have made it easier for the police to not only possibly identify his genetic heritage, but also deeply narrow any and all suspects until they found him. So unless the Zodiac had a common blood type, and he knew it, I just don't see it.
And strange enough, he didn't always use multiple stamps. More than few letters had a single Roosevelt. I think the guy used his 6-cent'ers until he had no more and then used up the one-cent ones until he went out for more.
I have an article, in HTML, where I graphically display all the stamps he used, when and where. I know you did the same thing with a post. I just don't see a pattern that implies he was saying much with the stamps, other than that he may have used more postage than necessary only when mailing to more distant locations. Perhaps the guy didn't completely understand how the US postal service works...
Perhaps he adopted Wing Walkers because of the tie-in with the heel prints at Riverside? How’s that? Too far?!
No, not too far IMO, not for a guy wearing a quad-corned hood and bib. The older man's clothing might have been his first murder disguise, along with Wing Walkers. This is what he might have worn at LHR and BRSP. We might also expect him to own a Timex, one perhaps similar to the Bates murder watch. And he then swaps into a hood at LB, followed by something else with horn-rimmed glasses at PH.
It's possible he felt that he had to dress like a killer in order to be a killer. And that might have extended to wearing what he imagined the Bates killer wearing.
Which also explains why he would send Avery a Halloween card, as that holiday thematically embodies both costumes and death, which would explain not only his perhaps singularly deep interest in the Bates murder, but also his desire for costumes and disguises. I'm going in circles, I know, but I'll bet anything this guy LOVED Halloween when he was a 'cid', and probably as an adult.
You have to wonder if he dressed like a different killer at every crime scene. A different kill, a different 'disguise', each drawn from his active fantasy-true-crime imagination.
I'll have more later, as I certainly feel that the evolving-fantasy-as-life theory has a lot to offer, and does explain many aspects of the Zodiac's apparent psychology.
Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by smithy » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:17 am
FoolsGold wrote:Now, let me assume that such a [saliva] test did exist, and the Zodiac knew about it. Would it have mattered much to him, then?
I've made that same assumption, and concluded that since the fledgeling Z was ultra-paranoid, and respectful of the potential of LE to find him, that's why he dropped the stamps. It's a thought. Not necessarily a correct one. I wonder why "no stamps?" if not?
Of course, I'm also still wondering why the occasional two-stamp approach. I briefly wondered if it had anything to do with the number of recent victims referred to, (supposedly added or mentioned - a kind of "head-count"), but that doesn't fit much, and is a nonsense. Forget I said it.
Perhaps he adopted Wing Walkers because of the tie-in with the heel prints at Riverside? How’s that? Too far?!
No, not too far IMO, not for a guy wearing a quad-corned hood and bib..... It's possible he felt that he had to dress like a killer in order to be a killer. And that might have extended to wearing what he imagined the Bates killer wearing.
..... You have to wonder if he dressed like a different killer at every crime scene. A different kill, a different 'disguise', each drawn from his active fantasy-true-crime imagination.
Yes, I've heard this same thought expressed elsewhere. It may have some worth nuh? Hmm.
Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by smithy » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:33 pm
FoolsGold wrote:I'll reply more later, once I've had to chance to mull over the article link you posted...
Bump.
This is what he might have worn at LHR and BRSP.
A thought, but Mike Mageau got a reasonable look and no mention's made.
Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by LIVE55 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:41 pm
I've always doubted Riverside as a Zodiac crime, but some recent threads here are forcing me to reconsider.If Zodiac was responsible (or just wrote the letters) and it was his first tenative steps towards the Z persona this kind of eliminates the Edwards/Domingos murders as a Z crime, does it not?An either/ or proposition? I'm intrigued by E/D but '63 is "early."
Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by smithy » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:55 pm
LIVE55 wrote:.... this kind of eliminates the Edwards/Domingos murders as a Z crime, does it not?An either/ or proposition? I'm intrigued by E/D but '63 is "early."
Darn tootin'.
And if Z is a scholar of the previous, a lifter of MO's, maybe Berryessa is derivative too...... possibly from Edwards/Domingos even, in part. Nuh?
Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by LIVE55 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:03 pm
I've never considered that smithy.Its possible.This Bates case has me questioning some previous notions in regards to Z(from Vallejo? Started with LHR? etc.) If we could just know for sure(RPD-COMPARE THE DNA!)CJB may very well hold the key to everything, if it is indeed the first Z crime scene.I re-read MB's blog from 10/09 last night and I've come full circle on this one. BTW Smithy,your avatar,was this the actual button Z referenced in the letter or is it something you came up with? If the former, then Z wasn't familiar with ol' Herman eh? Or did he just write what he THOUGHT he heard? (like the Mikado , IMO)
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Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by Lucifer's Angel » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:49 pm
LIVE55 wrote:I've always doubted Riverside as a Zodiac crime, but some recent threads here are forcing me to reconsider.If Zodiac was responsible (or just wrote the letters) and it was his first tenative steps towards the Z persona this kind of eliminates the Edwards/Domingos murders as a Z crime, does it not?An either/ or proposition? I'm intrigued by E/D but '63 is "early."
Santa Barbara may have been his first exercise in slaughter, after which he lies low for three years in fear of being discovered. His desire to kill may have been dampened during this period for whatever reason, too. The Riverside slaying sparks off a desire to 'get back into the fray', which he kicks off with his first attempt at manipulating the media. This gives him courage/gets him going. Two years later, he's into it full swing.
The above theory is, of course, working on the notion that Zodiac did not kill Cheri, but only wrote the letters.
Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by Princein » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:17 am
I found this while searching through the archives of Voight's site:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/cjb/1182.html
It's an article detailing a 19 year old Riverside College student who was accosted by a man fitting the description of the Zodiac Killer who kept mentioning the murder of Cheri Jo Bates.
Pro:
-Similar physical description
-Mentioned Jack the Ripper, who was thought to have written taunting letters to the police.
-Use of the word "Shall".
Con:
-Wanted her to remove her clothes.
-Physical description is actually pretty vague
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/cjb/1182.html
It's an article detailing a 19 year old Riverside College student who was accosted by a man fitting the description of the Zodiac Killer who kept mentioning the murder of Cheri Jo Bates.
Pro:
-Similar physical description
-Mentioned Jack the Ripper, who was thought to have written taunting letters to the police.
-Use of the word "Shall".
Con:
-Wanted her to remove her clothes.
-Physical description is actually pretty vague
Re: Riverside: Root of all evil?
by smithy » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:51 pm
I need a little think about these good posts, but to get the button out of the way!
L55, thanks for asking, it's an image I took from Ebay when missing out on a bid for "the original" (so the seller said, who'd know?) "60's button." It fetched $60, I think. Amazing.
In respect to the Z's note on the subject - I think he was messin' with us and was well aware of the authors name. Perhaps he had Melvin Belli in mind, nuh? (I can't remember the timeframe of the letter off-hand). Quite the joker, Z.
(I certainly agree his phonetic spellings of the Groucho version of the Mikado though, no doubt).
BTW, whenever I read over the account of the button in the yellow book, I'm never quite sure if GS got the joke.
LIVE55 wrote:I'... Smithy,your avatar,was this the actual button Z referenced in the letter or is it something you came up with? If the former, then Z wasn't familiar with ol' Herman eh? Or did he just write what he THOUGHT he heard? (like the Mikado , IMO)
L55, thanks for asking, it's an image I took from Ebay when missing out on a bid for "the original" (so the seller said, who'd know?) "60's button." It fetched $60, I think. Amazing.
In respect to the Z's note on the subject - I think he was messin' with us and was well aware of the authors name. Perhaps he had Melvin Belli in mind, nuh? (I can't remember the timeframe of the letter off-hand). Quite the joker, Z.
(I certainly agree his phonetic spellings of the Groucho version of the Mikado though, no doubt).
BTW, whenever I read over the account of the button in the yellow book, I'm never quite sure if GS got the joke.
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