Confusion with Bates police memo

[morf13 Profile Website]

Guess he figured they would get delivered no matter what

[Menecrates Profile]

Crazy stuff I keep finding in the FBI files.

The confession letters were addressed to:

Homicide Detail, Riverside

and

Daily Enterprise, Riverside, California Attn: Crime

and get this:

No stamps on either one.

Zs

I think it'd be useful to keep in mind that most postal processing was done on the local level back then. None of the regional stuff we have now (for the most part anyway). It got to to the right post office and most of the guys and gals back then knew where the local Homicide bulls and the newspapers were. And where John Smith, and Betty Doe and Art Allen lived. Or could and would have bothered to find it.

It really wasn't all that long ago the Post Office stopped delivering postage due (relatively speaking, I bet only Bently and I remember that. But still).

[Gavrilo Princip Profile]

Please take a look at the following police memo from Riverside PD 10/20/69.

I am confused here.

The memo clearly states that the Confession letter writer is "aware of facts in the Bates case that only the killer would know" and that "there is no doubt"

Yes, those of us whom have been looking at the Zodiac case for a long time had already deduced that. Basically the writer gives a very high degree of pertinent detail, that (if it were not true) would immediately DQ the letter as legitimate (i.e. method of disabling the vehicle, method of killing her, fact that part of the knife was still in her body etc.). If any facts in the "confession" were incorrect, then we would likely not even know if its existence.

It also says that "one month later letters were received" by the newspaper and the RPD. This would be the confession letter. I was not aware that multiple confession letters were sent, I thought only one was sent, and then on April 30, multiple letter were sent? This could be important. If multiple Confession leters were sent on the one month anniversary of Cheri's murder, and multiple letters were sent on the 6 month anniversary, it would seem more likely that they are both from the same author.

Wrong. That is completely untrue. The first writer went to great lengths to prove he was responsible. The second writer made no attempt to do so, and (in reality) does not claim responsibility for Cheri's death...most people merely assume he's trying to take responsibility, which may not be the case...alas...I know you don't want to bother with facts getting in the way of your active fantasy regarding Cheri's death.

Secondly, the confession letter clearly has you typical "cc" at the bottom...which is something you'd expect someone in the office / clerical setting to do...not so much a student. As you may or may not know "cc" means...well some say it means "carbon copy", some "courtesy copy"...whatever, for practical purposes it's a list of people or entities that received that document. This is CC chief of police and Enterprise (presumably the "Press Enterprise").

Am I missing something here?? From what I understand, Bates didnt get connected to Zodiac until 1970. So how is it that Riverside is sending Napa a memo saying their case may be connected to Zodiac right after the Berryessa attack? And it doesnt mention which case, but says the Bates case is similar to the Napa case, so with that, and the date of the memo, I assume that the memo is describing the Berryessa case.

You're not missing anything...the Bates crime wasn't publicly tied to the Zodiac case until Avery (or whomever) broke the story. Apparently the police were aware of it...but probably dismissed it as not likely Zodiac, as it resembles no Zodiac crime, at all. Despite your adherence to the idea that it does.

What is going on here? How did Riverside so quickly jump to the conclusion that their case may be connected to Napa's several hours to the North? This would certainly blow the theory out of the water that Riverside quickly locked onto their suspect and got tunnel vision.

I don't know how Riverside justifies it, I do know that Bates' murder was one of very, very few (maybe only) unsolved homicides in Riverside, so looking for other recent crimes, or unsolved crimes may have been a method they used to try to shake something loose on that case. If someone were to take your tack (i.e. just ignore the vast majority of data and concentrate only on keywords you're looking for), Riverside sees "knife attack at isolated location"...jeez Sergent, do we have any unsolved knife killings that occurred in an isolated location?

Although, outside of those two facts, the cases (Bates and Berryessa) do not jive at all. Frankly, I don't think Zodiac would have the huevos to walk up to a lone woman, without a mask on, and start a conversation. What it does clearly show is that Napa didn't think Bates' killer had anything to do with Berryessa in late 69. And they were correct.

[akwilks Profile]

GP, if I understand you correctly, you agree that the writer of the confession letter is likely the killer of Bates, because the police stated he had inside knowledge only the killer could know. Morrill determined that Zodiac wrote all the documents in the Bates case, including the confession envelope. Therefor, if we credit the Morrill determination as likely correct, it seems that Zodiac likely was the killer of Bates.

The confession envelope has a strange blocky style. Yet we can see similarities to known Z writing, in particluar other blocky odd styles Z has used. And the Cal DOJ expert Morrill says it was Z, which was inconclusively and weakly backed up by the FBI analyst, who said all the examined possible Z writings, including all those from Riverside, had characteristics indicating they may have been done by one person.

So if Zodiac wrote the confession letter, it seems highly likely he was in fact the killer of Bates.

[morf13 Profile Website]

Thats the point. The Riverside police (originally at least) thought that the confession letter writer was clearly Cheri's killer.
If the confession letter writer and the writer of teh "Bates had to die" letters were not the same person, that would mean two different and separate disturbed writers in the case of one girl. I personally think it is unlikely.

I was on the fence about if Bates was a Z victim or not, still am i guess. I originally thought there were articles in the paper that released enough info in which the confession letter writer could have lied about killing her. Since the police seem to think that the confession writer knew stuff only the killer would know, and that I dont think there was more than one disturbed letter writer, i guess I lean toward Bates being a Z victim.

[akwilks Profile]

Mike B did a very good analysis of Bates and the possible Zodiac tie. Here:

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/blog/

I strogly advise reading all of Mike's blog, but one key part is as follows:

The behavior of the killer in the Bates case is also similar to that of the Zodiac in several respects. Like the Zodiac, the Bates killer carried out a premeditated act which included careful planning, execution, and the use of a ruse in order to gain the trust of the victim. Like the Zodiac, the Bates killer was capable of putting his victim at ease, and created an elaborate lie so that he could guide the victim towards his predetermined conclusion and the planned attack. Like the Zodiac, the Bates killer did not engage in any sexual activity with the victim and made no effort to transport or conceal the body after the murder. The Bates crime also lacked signs of any apparent or traditional motives such as sexual assault, robbery or personal animosity. The Bates killer also took risks, exposing himself to potential witnesses in the library parking lot and taking the chance that he might be seen talking to or walking with the victim before the attack.

Chief Kinkead strongly believed that the author of the “Confession” was the same individual responsible for the Bates murder, and he clearly viewed the Zodiac as a logical suspect. Kinkead based his opinion on many factors but other information also supported his conclusion. After the Bates murder, Riverside police, the local newspaper and Bates’ father received three virtually identical handwritten letters in April 1967. The Zodiac’s first written attempt to communicate consisted of three virtually identical handwritten letters mailed in July, 1969. The author of the Riverside “Confession” wrote, “SHE SQUIRMED AND SHOOK AS I CHOAKED HER, AND HER LIPS TWICHED.” In his letter of July 26, 1970, the Zodiac wrote: “Some I shall tie over ant hills and watch them scream + twich and squirm.” Theories regarding a possible link between the Zodiac and Bates crimes did not appear in news reports until three month after the Zodiac had misspelled the same word in the same manner as the author of the “Confession.” Although I cannot claim to possess complete knowledge regarding the history of writings linked to murders, I would venture to guess that these are the only two instances in which a killer mailed three virtually identical handwritten letters. This similarity, and the use of the identical misspelling, suggests that the same author may have been responsible for both communications.

[Gavrilo Princip Profile]

GP, if I understand you correctly, you agree that the writer of the confession letter is likely the killer of Bates, because the police stated he had inside knowledge only the killer could know. Morrill determined that Zodiac wrote all the documents in the Bates case, including the confession envelope. Therefor, if we credit the Morrill determination as likely correct, it seems that Zodiac likely was the killer of Bates.

I don't credit handwriting experts very much at all. And based on the method of printing on the Enterprise envelope, I don't think the printing can be conclusivley tied to Zodiac. If you like to theorize that handwriting analysis is an objective skill, then by all means, theorize away. Also, I'm not aware Morill had evaluated this envelope. Regarless, Barto IDed Jack Tarrance as the writer of the Zodiac letters. The discipline is not suitable to base a case upon.

So if Zodiac wrote the confession letter, it seems highly likely he was in fact the killer of Bates.

It's a house of cards as a theory, but even if it's true, the writer may have had access to police reports (maybe he worked in Riverside PD's office), or he knew the killer or got the information from another source.

[Zsearcher Profile]

GP, I don't think Nanette Barto is the person to point to when trying to discount handwriting experts. She is obviously very new at this and is a bit too ambitious. She hasn't had the decades of experience that Morrill had, and is also a little kooky. Handwriting analysis is admissable in court. If it's admissable in court why wouldn't you say handwriting experts are credit worthy? Every profession has their kooks. Look at Debbie Perez's counsel. Zs

[morf13 Profile Website]

I agree, I think Barto is too new. And as far as not crediting handwriting experts, they are good enough to get called to the witness stand in prosecutions, if LE & prosecuters use them, why shouldnt Zodiac researchers?

[Gavrilo Princip Profile]

She's an "expert" she has the training and the certification. So did Morell. I'm not quantifying their relative abilities...but the fact that someone can be certified and come to completely different conclusions does not really make me feel that handwriting analysis is an objective matter. Morell also said the desktop poem was by Zodiac too...which (it would seem to me) would be a stretch. Who carves things in their own handwriting?

It's academic anyway, the proposition was: if the killer wrote the letter (likely), then because Morell said it was Zodiac's printing on the envelope the killer must be Zodiac (plausible, but not likely).