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Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

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Bently

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby Bently » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:55 am

Good topic Menecrates. I suppose the biggest point in favor of there being anything to it, as has been mentioned, is Z not expecting his victims to survive so why not tell the truth? This assumes however, that there was some truth to tell.

I'm skeptical because according to Hartnell http://www.zodiackiller.com/KCRA1.html the original motive was money and transportation (to Mexico). In the end Z took neither Hartnell's wallet or car keys and he obviously had the victims in position to take both. Clearly wasn't Z's intention and not the truth.

Z's prison reference then comes in response to Hartnell offer to help Z in the future. That surely didn't sound good to Z, who as we know had neither money, transportation or any continued relationship with Hartnell in mind. I think it may have just been Z's quickly fabricated response declining Hartnell's offer, he was on the run and didn't have time to wait, with a bit of scare tactic thrown in.

Does a Deer Lodge reference point to any suspect who may have lived, passed through or otherwise known about it? Tough to say since as you note it started out as Fern Lock Colorado or some such.

akwilks

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby akwilks » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:18 pm

FBI agent John Douglas thought it was a significant clue, as Z mentioned it to people he thought were going to be dead. Douglas went to college in Montana, studying criminal justice, and he says he had never heard of Deer Lodge.

It seems most likely that Z had some background or connection to the town, even if it was just passing through, for it to be on his mind. But who knows? I think it is a significant clue, others may not.

metaltomato

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby metaltomato » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:37 pm

Im not entirely sure on this, but I think LE concluded that the Deer Lodge info was irrelevant as the interviewing officer had prompted BH instead of letting him finish the description by himself. Because the interviewing officer helped him finish his description, that description is no longer a valid fact. At least this is my understanding.

Gavrilo Princip

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby Gavrilo Princip » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:00 pm

There's a Fern Lake in Sonoma County California, about 45 miles away from Lake Berryessa. It's not too far from Vallejo (30 miles +/-), but it's an hour drive (Fern Lake is outside Eldridge, CA...I understand it's "in the sticks"). It is also either in or very close to Jack London State Park, which was a state park in 1969.

That is all.

Bently

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby Bently » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:00 pm

Good call Gav. Right in my stomping grounds and I've never been there. Been to nearby Glenn Ellen and JL Park plenty. It's also very near Napa and LB.

Apparently the lake was owned, at some point, by The Sonoma Developmental Center. Now here's the kicker:

"The Sonoma Developmental Center is a state-owned facility for the mentally and physically impaired." :shock:

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx?trailid=HGS527-083

Image

Gavrilo Princip

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby Gavrilo Princip » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:42 pm

Bently wrote:Apparently the lake was owned, at some point, by The Sonoma Developmental Center. Now here's the kicker:

The Sonoma Developmental Center is a state-owned facility for the mentally and physically impaired.


It looks like they cater to children and adults with profound mental retardation and extreme physical disabilities, I gathered that just from looking at their website.

I don't know, this is something that's in the region. Maybe Zodiac knew of the lake, or drove past it on the way to Berryessa that day...could you pass off that Lake going from Vallejo to Berryessa?

Bently

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby Bently » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:52 am

Thanks, I came up with the same upon further study. The place has been around for a century though, might have been some alternate programs around at times, though I didn't see anything unusual going on in the late '60s from my rudimentary searches. Employees, relatives?

Interesting zynchrosity if nothing else given the name and location.

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Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby Solar Pons » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:54 am

There is a Deer Lodge No 14 Masonic Lodge in Montana http://www.grandlodgemontana.org/Lodge_ ... lodge.html, mind you Zynchronicitys are endless and we don't really know for sure if it was Montana or Deer. It would be interesting if he had been a member, lots of Militia in Montana.

metaltomato

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby metaltomato » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:04 pm

Xygor wrote:It is an interesting take that since the killer would give information to people he believed he would shortly slay, it may actually have been truthful and/or important.

That is, of course, predicated by the notion that Zodiac actually said Deer Lodge. In honesty, I don't believe Bryan Hartnell was completely sure what he said based on the post attack interviews/police reports on this case. As has been mentioned, Bryan gave several words that may have been associated with the location that was mentioned and was clearly not sure of it.


This is an exceptionally good point, and one that I am going to meditate on.

I heard somewhere that in dealing with serial killers, the most important interview is with the survivor(s). The fact that the Killer would not need to be terribly honest past a point, and may have let slip some detail of importance is interesting.

It would be terribly relevant to have a reputable Zodiac researcher do a definitive interview with BH, not about what most folks seem to want to know about, i.e., the moment of truth, but about the minutia of the encounter. I wonder if a really good forensic interrogator (if there is such a thing) could coax BH's memory into giving up some new details, perhaps under hypnosis or some such.

akwilks

Re: Is Deer Lodge, MT Really Significant?

Postby akwilks » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:25 pm

I think it was indeed likely "Deer Lodge", because BH recalls Z saying something about "escaping from a prison" and there is a prison there. The FBI seems to have thought it was "Deer Lodge, Montana" that BH recalled (with some prompting), as they did look for people who had escaped from there or otherwise had ties to the area.

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