Zodiac´s many different handwritings

[Theforeigner Profile]

Of all the handwriting exemplars I've seen over the years, your POI's are the most intriguing. Any chance you'd be willing to PM me some further details on how this person came under your radar and what other points in common he has with the Zodiac? I know I'm late to this thread, but you've piqued my curiosity big time!

Hi PJ, thanks for your interest, but I have choosen not to share further details concerning my POI until my report on him have been evaluated by a person who know my POI in depth, and thereafter LE, if this person agree with my research.
I want to feel 100% sure that he in fact is the Zodiac before I share more info on him.
Hope you understand.

[Theforeigner Profile]

Here is a file where I have compared handwritten numbers by Zodiac and my POI.

Z= Zodiac
X= My POI

The different numbers of Zodiac's are from his letters and the LB car door.
The different numbers of my POI is taken from less than 10 different documents.

I arranged the numbers in the order I did, 4 5 2 6 9 8 7 3 0 1, due to
"that handwritten characters can be generally ranked in descending order
of individual discriminative power thus" and this is the order of numbers 4 5 2 6 9 8 7 3 0 1
Read reseacher "Chiefron"'s explanation to me back in Jan 2011 (Thank you Ron :)) on this subject, further down this post.





http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... is-letters

Subject: Re: Zodiac´s ways of writing "&" / "and" in his letters Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:20 am
ChiefRon
Police Officer



TF,

Bin Zhang, Sargur N. Srihari, and Sangjik Lee did a study at University of New York at Buffalo that suggests that handwritten characters can be generally ranked in descending order
of individual discriminative power thus: ’G’; ’b’; ’N’; ’I’; ’K’;’J’; ’W’; ’D’; ’h’; ’F’; ’r’; ’H’; ’B’; ’M’; ’m’; ’d’; ’n’; ’V’; ’A’;’w’; ’L’; ’v’; ’y’; ’S’; ’E’; ’R’; ’s’; ’f’; ’U’; ’Z’; ’u’; ’Y’; ’4’; ’5’;’t’; ’k’; ’Q’; ’2’; ’z’; ’g’; ’o’; ’6’; ’q’; ’9’; ’a’; ’P’; ’8’; ’j’; ’e’; ’p’;’l’; ’T’; ’x’; ’7’; ’3’; ’i’; ’c’; ’O’; ’C’; ’X’; ’0’; ’1’.

They note that in their study all character images belonging to the same class were segmented from the word images of the same content and they have the same relative position in the word images and handwriting samples. Therefore the ranking order of characters in discriminative power of individuality simply provides a general guidance for selecting most-informative characters in examining forensic documents.

It is important to note that Zodiac's character construction in his codes tends to be different from his construction of those same characters in what I presume to be the normal flow of his handwriting -- many disagree and instead believe that he disguised his handwriting -- as expressed in the letters and on the envelopes. Even with about a 16% reject rate when doing individual character comparisons, it is conceivable that with a large enough pool of your POI's handwriting, you could reach a conclusion with genuine value. If you were able to compare all 62 characters listed, the identification accuracy demonstrate by the authors in their study is a pretty amazing 97.83%, but the point at which the identification accuracy performance vs. number of characters available for comparison plateaus is roughly 20 characters for an accuracy rate of 90% (did that run on?) lol

Ron

p.s. note that 'q' falls just under the mid way point in discriminative power. Not horrible, but not as individual as one would think.

[traveller1st Profile]

Do you have any examples of his 'q' TF?

[Theforeigner Profile]

Do you have any examples of his 'q' TF?

Here is a copy of a post I posted over at Zodiackiller.com Oct 31, 2011, includeing both Zodiac q and my POI's q

And by the way, I belive there are previously more handwriting samples of my POI in this thread if you are interested.

My POI's "q" in this example is not his normal handwriting, however it is written by my POI in the mid 60s.
I know this is not a perfect match at all, but it show that my POI somtimes write the kind of "8 number like" q, in this example he do it very neet, not like Zodiac's shabby handwriting.
(My POI has many different handwriting styles, ranging from shabby to very neet)

[traveller1st Profile]

Thanks for that TF. Interesting. Thank you also for posting today or I might not have noticed this thread. There's so much stuff to read through from people over the years it's east to miss stuff.

If you haven't done so already. Just as an experiment for yourself, it may or may not prove helpful. Take all of the Zodiac's letters (only the absolute accepted ones) and put them all right next to each other on a page so you can see them all. You will get a better overall impression of his style. Then take the most complete page of your POI's writing and stick it next to them to see how it looks.

It's a sort of taking a step back to see everything in it's entirety approach. That way you aren't getting so much into detail but more the overall look. I'm going to be trying it with some stuff.

EDIT: Also to add it's nice to see the comparisons you made at the start of the thread between the writing and the ciphers. Pretty much the conclusion I came to as part of the piece I submitted recently over on zodiackillercase.

[Mike Kelleher Profile]

Of all the handwriting exemplars I've seen over the years, your POI's are the most intriguing. Any chance you'd be willing to PM me some further details on how this person came under your radar and what other points in common he has with the Zodiac? I know I'm late to this thread, but you've piqued my curiosity big time!

Hi PJ, thanks for your interest, but I have choosen not to share further details concerning my POI until my report on him have been evaluated by a person who know my POI in depth, and thereafter LE, if this person agree with my research.
I want to feel 100% sure that he in fact is the Zodiac before I share more info on him.
Hope you understand.

I've been trying to catch up with this thread and it's very interesting. I think the way you are handling this research is professional and sensitive. I appreciate your work and your wise way in this.

At some point, whenever you feel comfortable, I would like to know if the individual who wrote the material you are researching was ever involved in the arts, design, layout, or that kind of thing. I think that Trav could probably express this better than I just did. The bottom line for me is to follow the thoughts that Trav outlined here and at my site, an area that has caught my attention.

Nice work.
Mike

[Theforeigner Profile]

Thanks for that TF. Interesting. Thank you also for posting today or I might not have noticed this thread. There's so much stuff to read through from people over the years it's east to miss stuff.

If you haven't done so already. Just as an experiment for yourself, it may or may not prove helpful. Take all of the Zodiac's letters (only the absolute accepted ones) and put them all right next to each other on a page so you can see them all. You will get a better overall impression of his style. Then take the most complete page of your POI's writing and stick it next to them to see how it looks.

It's a sort of taking a step back to see everything in it's entirety approach. That way you aren't getting so much into detail but more the overall look. I'm going to be trying it with some stuff.

EDIT: Also to add it's nice to see a more the comparisons you made at the start of the thread between the writing and the ciphers. Pretty much the conclusion I came to as part of the piece I submitted recently over on zodiackillercase.

Hi Trav

Thanks for your response and suggestions:)
The problem with making the "overall impression" comparison between the Zodiac handwriting and my POI's handwriting, is that my POI's natural handwriting is a mature and nice kursive, and Zodiac's is printed letters.
However I do have some other different handwriting samples of my POI and my x-husband, who is, like you I belive, a graphic designer (for 30 yers) and additioanlly is educated in Technical lettering, have done somthing like what you suggest and he is of the opinion that my POI's handwriting and Zodiac's handwriting is a probable match.

I would be very interested in a more detailed opinion by you concerning my comparison of the Zodiac/My POI's numbers, would you call it; a match? close to a match?, maybe a match?, unlikely a match?, not a match? I´d be thankful for any kind of analyisi/reflection.

[Theforeigner Profile]

Of all the handwriting exemplars I've seen over the years, your POI's are the most intriguing. Any chance you'd be willing to PM me some further details on how this person came under your radar and what other points in common he has with the Zodiac? I know I'm late to this thread, but you've piqued my curiosity big time!

Hi PJ, thanks for your interest, but I have choosen not to share further details concerning my POI until my report on him have been evaluated by a person who know my POI in depth, and thereafter LE, if this person agree with my research.
I want to feel 100% sure that he in fact is the Zodiac before I share more info on him.
Hope you understand.

I've been trying to catch up with this thread and it's very interesting. I think the way you are handling this research is professional and sensitive. I appreciate your work and your wise way in this.

At some point, whenever you feel comfortable, I would like to know if the individual who wrote the material you are researching was ever involved in the arts, design, layout, or that kind of thing. I think that Trav could probably express this better than I just did. The bottom line for me is to follow the thoughts that Trav outlined here and at my site, an area that has caught my attention.

Nice work.
Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for you kind words they are very much appreciated:)
I went to your website and read Trav's contribution "First Impressions . . . Last " with great interest (Thanks Trav!), great observations, VERY interesting indeed and I agree very much with what he is writing.

[traveller1st Profile]

Thanks for that TF. Interesting. Thank you also for posting today or I might not have noticed this thread. There's so much stuff to read through from people over the years it's east to miss stuff.

If you haven't done so already. Just as an experiment for yourself, it may or may not prove helpful. Take all of the Zodiac's letters (only the absolute accepted ones) and put them all right next to each other on a page so you can see them all. You will get a better overall impression of his style. Then take the most complete page of your POI's writing and stick it next to them to see how it looks.

It's a sort of taking a step back to see everything in it's entirety approach. That way you aren't getting so much into detail but more the overall look. I'm going to be trying it with some stuff.

EDIT: Also to add it's nice to see a more the comparisons you made at the start of the thread between the writing and the ciphers. Pretty much the conclusion I came to as part of the piece I submitted recently over on zodiackillercase.

Hi Trav

Thanks for your response and suggestions:)
The problem with making the "overall impression" comparison between the Zodiac handwriting and my POI's handwriting, is that my POI's natural handwriting is a mature and nice kursive, and Zodiac's is printed letters.
However I do have some other different handwriting samples of my POI and my x-husband, who is, like you I belive, a graphic designer (for 30 yers) and additioanlly is educated in Technical lettering, have done somthing like what you suggest and he is of the opinion that my POI's handwriting and Zodiac's handwriting is a probable match.

I would be very interested in a more detailed opinion by you concerning my comparison of the Zodiac/My POI's numbers, would you call it; a match? close to a match?, maybe a match?, unlikely a match?, not a match? I´d be thankful for any kind of analyisi/reflection.

Hi TF

For now I would say close to a match. I will have a closer look at the stuff you have posted and give you my thoughts on it and any other ideas for comparing if I think of any.

Cursive and nice cursive at that. Doesn't make it any easier does it lol.

[Theforeigner Profile]

Thanks for that TF. Interesting. Thank you also for posting today or I might not have noticed this thread. There's so much stuff to read through from people over the years it's east to miss stuff.

If you haven't done so already. Just as an experiment for yourself, it may or may not prove helpful. Take all of the Zodiac's letters (only the absolute accepted ones) and put them all right next to each other on a page so you can see them all. You will get a better overall impression of his style. Then take the most complete page of your POI's writing and stick it next to them to see how it looks.

It's a sort of taking a step back to see everything in it's entirety approach. That way you aren't getting so much into detail but more the overall look. I'm going to be trying it with some stuff.

EDIT: Also to add it's nice to see a more the comparisons you made at the start of the thread between the writing and the ciphers. Pretty much the conclusion I came to as part of the piece I submitted recently over on zodiackillercase.

Hi Trav

Thanks for your response and suggestions:)
The problem with making the "overall impression" comparison between the Zodiac handwriting and my POI's handwriting, is that my POI's natural handwriting is a mature and nice kursive, and Zodiac's is printed letters.
However I do have some other different handwriting samples of my POI and my x-husband, who is, like you I belive, a graphic designer (for 30 yers) and additioanlly is educated in Technical lettering, have done somthing like what you suggest and he is of the opinion that my POI's handwriting and Zodiac's handwriting is a probable match.

I would be very interested in a more detailed opinion by you concerning my comparison of the Zodiac/My POI's numbers, would you call it; a match? close to a match?, maybe a match?, unlikely a match?, not a match? I´d be thankful for any kind of analyisi/reflection.

Hi TF

For now I would say close to a match. I will have a closer look at the stuff you have posted and give you my thoughts on it and any other ideas for comparing if I think of any.

Cursive and nice cursive at that. Doesn't make it any easier does it lol.

Thanks Trav, and I´m looking forward to hear more when you have looked more into it.
I do apprechiate your opinion and skills a lot.
And as I wrote to Mike I find you "First Impressions . . . Last" file VERY interesting, and agree with what you had to say in it.